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Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
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Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Hi All,

I French Polished my first several guitars. However, on the 2 I am working on now, I think I am going to French Polish the tops, and Tru Oil the B&S and necks. I currently use Z-poxy to pore fill as well. I was wondering what process anybody does for the same items?

I was thinking:
- Z-poxy the way I always do it (I follow Todd's excellent youtube vids)
- LMI says sand to 320, then 400, then 600?
- Shellac coat after z-poxy?
- Tru Oil wiped with the grain, then wipe off excess
- 2 coats a day (morning and night)
- Approx 12-15 coats
- level sand after eery 2 or 3 coats (gently rub with 0000 wire wool?)
- let cure for 2 weeks
- buff with micro mesh 3000 - 12000
- Meguirs swirl remover

Any thoughts, changes, suggestions?

Thanks!
Glenn
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Hi Glen,

Many people have had problems with Truoil over epoxy. The problem seems to manifest itself at times of humidity swings (winter to spring seems to be worst). The finish goes from silky smooth to fuzzy in a few days. You can sand it back to smooth and re-coat with Truoil and all will be fine until the next big change in weather.

I would find another finish or a different pore fill method.

Steve
Author:  Mitch Johnson [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
I recently did a tru oil finish and followed LMI's directions (http://www.lmii.com/oil-finishes). They suggest only doing 3-4 coats of wiping on and wiping off. 12-15 seems like a lot. I suppose if you are going to level sand and buff the finish it might make sense to build that much, but they recommend avoiding applying too many build coats. I know people who use it on electrics will use that many coats and can get an almost lacquer like sheen after buffing. I think the idea with prepping the surface to 600 before finish is to be able to avoid level sanding between coats. I'm sure others might have more insight since I've only used TO on one guitar. I used LMI's acrylic water based paste filler, and I wasn't all that impressed. I think I'm going to go your way on my next guitar (French Polished top, and tru oil on the back and sides). I followed LMI's suggestion pretty strictly and ended up with 4 build coats. I was impressed with the look, but I wasn't happy with my GF job, and it wasn't quite what you would expect from lacquer. I've also thought about using Crystallac pore filler, but might be giving Z-poxy a shot since I've heard people have had great success with it. I'll try and post some pictures a little later.

I should also mention that it didn't look all that great on my EIR headstock. It absorbed kind of spotty do to it being an oily wood. I ended up just rubbing it out with steel wool and leaving it satin.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Thanks Guys.

I forgot to mention that i did Tru oil the necks on my forst 2 guitars (FP every where else). I actually love the feel of the tru oil on the neck. I used Z-poxy on those, and have not seen any issues at all. I did Shellac after the z-poxy, then i put on the tru oil... perhaps that helped stay away form the issues reported?.

WRT the many coats of tru oil... i may have read that somewhere where the person filled with the tru oil too.. I will do more research for how many coats. I think i did about 8 coats on the necks, The headplates are both Mad RW, and the tru oil had no issues with that as well (perhaps, again, cause i used shellac between z-poxy and tru oil?).
Thanks!

Glenn
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
That may have been me, I usually do at least 20 coats, and have done as many as 40. Some of that has to do with my technique, which is a little different than most.
For pore fill, I've used shellac and CA with sucess. With shellac, I don't usually completely fill the pores, which is one reason for the many coats of oil. I prefer to use CA, but that's not an easy trick to learn! Either way, the pore fill gets sanded back to bare wood, and then through the grits up to at least 400, maybe 600 depending on the wood. This is too slick for lacquer, but I've had no trouble with oil.
WARM THE OIL before you apply it, hot water running on the bottle for a few minutes does just fine. This makes the oil a little thinner and it goes on much easier using my technique. I actually hand rub the oil, using the heel of my hand. The first couple of coats require a reasonable amount of oil, and I rub it "into" the wood until it just starts to become tacky. It's a matter of feel to be able to tell when to quit. I don't wipe it off, I rub it in. After the first 3 or 4 coats, it only takes a few drops of oil. I'll do two coats a day, and let it dry for 24 hours every 4 to 6 coats before sanding level. DRY sand with 400/600 grit, get all the shiny spots out, and put on more oil. When I've done this over and over until it looks like it done, I'll put on one last coat that goes on PERFECT. Just the right amount of oil, rubbed in for exactly the right amount of time. (Sometime this takes more than one try, just let it dry for 24 hrs, sand, and try again. The one that took 40 coats would only have had 32 if I'd gotten the last coat right the first time!) I don't wetsand after it cures, so the last coat needs to be as good as I can get it.
Let it cure for 3 weeks to a month, then I buff it with a handheld automotive buffer using LMI polish and rottenstone. It's all hand done, time consuming, and low tech, but you can get a quality finish, especially if you prefer a somewhat "softer" gloss than you get from lacquer.

Did I say warm the oil before you apply it? It's important, and I don't usually see that in other techniques.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
My method was to wipe on very thinly and not wipe off. Make sure you seal well if you are finishing Rosewoods. TO does not like rosewoods, and will only try to dry. Then you have to wipe with mineral spirits to get the goo off and let it dry over night at least. It goes on fine over shellac, or you can actually get Birchwood Casey's Sealer and Filler which is fast drying. With my wipe on method an a controlled shop, I was able to rub back within a few hours most of the time. I used the nonwoven pads for that. Worked for me.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
WaddyThomson wrote:
My method was to wipe on very thinly and not wipe off. Make sure you seal well if you are finishing Rosewoods. TO does not like rosewoods, and will only try to dry. Then you have to wipe with mineral spirits to get the goo off and let it dry over night at least. It goes on fine over shellac, or you can actually get Birchwood Casey's Sealer and Filler which is fast drying. With my wipe on method an a controlled shop, I was able to rub back within a few hours most of the time. I used the nonwoven pads for that. Worked for me.

Thanks Waddy,

One of the guitars is Mad RW (other African Mahogany). So after I z-poxy, and prep, I seal with shellac over z-poxy, then apply the tru oil? Just trying to get this thick brain to understand :-).

Thx,

Glenn
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
That should work. Might put a couple of wipes of shellac and scuff it lightly. The smoother the base the easier the build.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Thanks Waddy!

Glenn
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
FWIW, make sure you examine for defects carefully. Tru-Oil is very unforgiving and makes each issue stand out!
Author:  micahmed [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
WaddyThomson wrote:
My method was to wipe on very thinly and not wipe off. Make sure you seal well if you are finishing Rosewoods. TO does not like rosewoods, and will only try to dry. Then you have to wipe with mineral spirits to get the goo off and let it dry over night at least. It goes on fine over shellac, or you can actually get Birchwood Casey's Sealer and Filler which is fast drying. With my wipe on method an a controlled shop, I was able to rub back within a few hours most of the time. I used the nonwoven pads for that. Worked for me.


I wish I new this about the rosewood awhile ago. The sides of my guitar has no problem accespting it, but the back has
been giving me problems. I finally stripped it down for the 3rd time and now have sprayed some shellac on it. hope this work. the guitar should have been done by now.
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Hi, Glenn. I think this is all pretty good advice, so I can only add a few more tips. I've never used epoxy as a pore filler. But I've used Tru Oil over a seal coat of shellac very successfully. So, if everyone thinks shellac will properly seal the epoxy, you should be okay using a seal coat.
Alternatively, just use a different pore filler. (I use an oil based pore filler, and I add stains to it, but that's just my preference). Warming the oil is a good idea, and I stir it first, too. Like any varnish, its component parts can separate and settle during storage. Applications per day will depend on your shop environment. I think a lot of people try to build it too fast. If your coats are too thick and if they go on too fast, it can get to be a gummy, slow-drying mess. So be patient and go slowly. If it feels tacky when you're preparing to add your next coat, just hang the guitar up and wait until the next day. Number of coats is up to you, but I like to apply many thin coats. Depending on your technique, you might be able to polish it very successfully with some of the finer grits of micro mesh and then your swirl remover. In fact, you might be able to do it with swirl remover alone. This will depend on your personal taste when you evaluate the dried finish. Keep a piece of your neck or back wood with the guitar, and do everything to the scrap that you're doing to the guitar. Polish out the scrap first, to determine if your guitar is ready to be polished. Tru Oil is very forgiving and it can be very beautiful, but take special note of Waddy's surface prep advice. That's true with any finish. You'll be fine! This walnut-over-brass tailpiece is Tru Oil over shellac, polished with micro mesh and swirl remover:
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
From what I've read from Waddy's posts, my technique is pretty similiar to his except for the applicator.

cphanna wrote:
Tru Oil is very forgiving and it can be very beautiful, but take special note of Waddy's surface prep advice. That's true with any finish.:


That's one reason I sometimes use so many coats, surface preparation deficiencies tend to show up more after the first couple of coats of oil. That's the time to take care of them, it doesn't get easier later on. If that means you have to sand back to bare wood to get everything flat enough, do it before building up more coats. As long as you don't wetsand between coats, witness lines are not a problem, so you don't have to take everything down to bare wood, just the problem areas.

I guess I should mention that you_can_wetsand & polish TruOil after it cures and get results very similiar to nitro, that's just not what I'm looking for.

+1 on sealing some woods, I've had trouble with TruOil drying on pao ferro (aka morado, bolivian rosewood), but a good seal coat of shellac took care of it.
Author:  TimAllen [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
It seems to me that most of the recommended schedules do _not_ include using steel wool after every coat.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
TimAllen wrote:
It seems to me that most of the recommended schedules do _not_ include using steel wool after every coat.

Yeah, I was wondering the same. I was anticipating using 0000 after every 2 or 3 coats, but wondering if it is necessary.

Glenn
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Don't use steel wool, use 400 or 600 grit wet/dry paper, sanded DRY, with a backing block. Steel wool can leave little pieces behind that will be most inconvenient to remove. Wetsanding between coats may leave witness lines, and the only way to get rid of them is sand everything back to bare wood.

Sanding between coats isn't necessary, but it give you a pretty good idea of how flat/level your finish is.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
I wouldn't use steel wool either. I do use the "nonwoven" pads that are a substitute for steel wool, or, as stated before, 400 to 600 grit paper or wet/dry. I usually put a couple of coats before doing any rubbing at all though.
Author:  CraigG [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
Pore filling can be done using only the tru-oil. After an initial seal coat has dried for a day, sand with 220 using tru-oil to make a slurry of dust and oil to fill the pores. Repeat as necessary. Then continue as explained in the above posts.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
I wouldn't try that on Rosewoods. My experience showed me that Tru-Oil stayed gummy for days, and never dried when used on unsealed Rosewood. It was fine on my tests of non-oily woods like Sycamore and Jacaranda Para, but stayed gummy on EIR, Mad Rose and Cocobolo.
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tru Oil Schedule? And Z-poxy
I'm with Waddy on that, the oil slurry to fill pores works OK on mahogany, but in my opinion, there are better ways to fill pores. I don't work with rosewoods frequently, but I have had trouble with oil drying on unsealed Pao Ferro. I'd certainly do some tests on scrap before using a slurry fill on an instrument. You can get the goo off, but it kind of takes the fun out of finishing... beehive
edit: I can add bloodwood and paduk to the list of oil-friendly woods
I started out using the slurry fill, but switched to several coats of brushed shellac. It's not quick, I did one or two coats of shellac a day, let it dry for a day or two, sand back to bare wood. Repeat as necessary. Like many of my finishing techniques, it require many 5 to 10 minute tasks spread out over a much longer period of time.

I've also used CA for pore fill, and prefer that over everything else I've tried.
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